Curse

bungusmaximus · Apr 11, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunabreath

nice changes. it almost make it seem as if they are listening to pvpers. wtf?!?!

gg ANET.

And to PvE-ers, some necro buffs are actually quite good. Stupid question btw. but did the update to soul reaping help much against abuse? I didnt have the pleasure of meeting necro's in battle of late so I wouldn't know.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 11, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

They nerfed Othyug's Cry!
Now I have seen everything. Now I can die.

lordelg · Apr 11, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

They nerfed Othyug's Cry!
Now I have seen everything. Now I can die.

No they buffed it last update...

Patccmoi · Apr 11, 2007, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

They nerfed Othyug's Cry!
Now I have seen everything. Now I can die.

They didn't nerf it, just a text fix, it was working this way already =p

Flail seems like a very likely replacement to BoA on SP sins at least. 4 adrenal isn't actually hard to build up, and then you just SP-activate Flail-1-2-3-4. Will work as good as before, it's even easier on the energy, and by the time your combo is done it's recharged.

And i really understand the change to Natural Stride, this was honestly extremely powerful and just WHAT ranger didn't carry it? It's the perfect bar compression stance for all rangers. And it's still very viable at 12s recharge, i don't expect it to leave any ranger bar, it just gives their opponent a slightly bigger window to dispose of them.

I kinda agree that Water eles need a small tone down imo since Water Trident buff. A 4s recharge on Trident is what i'd suggest atm, nothing big or that will remove it from play, just a little less basically-ready-when-the-guy-gets-up.

As for hex removal, did you guys actually try Deny Hexes since the change? It's pretty easy to fit 1 other DF skill on a monk bar for it. I even started using Divine Intervention sometimes (though SoDevotion is more common) just cause the long recharge goes really well with Deny Hexes and it's still a nice skill to have once in a while (but i'll agree that's kinda jumping through a hoop to make good use of Deny!).

Neo-LD · Apr 11, 2007, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Water eles are fine.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 11, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

They didn't nerf it, just a text fix, it was working this way already =p

Dammit. Didn't it give all pets +20 (24?) armor? Or was that the part that the description was fixed to fit?

Now, an attempt to give some serious feedback
Rangers are a bit less immortal with these changes, which I think is a good thing.
I must say I can understand why they changed Mirror. It may be the only real hard counter out there to Aegis, but with the recent buffs to physicals, I think they deserve to be held in check a bit.
The same thing applies to water eles. They are very powerful, especially with Trident, but it's needed to hold physicals in check. The problem here is that snares can be used to buff warriors too, so it's a bit more complicated.
Mind Blast was pretty retarded in its 'old' form, so I can understand the nerf.
The Assassin Chain should be virtually unaffected by this nerf. Flail or Tiger Stance should work just fine (your chain is broken if you miss anyway), and it's still good damage, even with the new BSS.
I would've preferred attribute scaling on MT, just like some others, but I think this could do it. Now make it unaffected by expertise, and we're good.
I've never really had any problems with Brutal Weapon. The 'while not enchanted' condition was quite a big drawback already. I don't think I can see this skill ever see play again.
BoA is good, but I doubt it will stop sins from using Warrior IAS'es
Wearying Strike got the long called for nerf. It's still an exellent skill though.
I see they tried to make up for the fact that necro's now no longer have infinite energy to spam 25e skills on recharge. Totally uncalled for if you ask me. 10e SS? Cmon, it's not like no one used it.

Overall this update gives me a good feeling. I think they addressed some of the problems, but I doubt it will be enough.

Byron · Apr 11, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildwars.com

Monk

* Mending Touch: increased recharge time to 6 seconds.

This is blasphemy.

Quote:

Necromancer

* Spiteful Spirit: decreased Energy cost to 10.

This is madness.

Quote:

Elementalist

* Mind Blast: reduced damage to 15..60.

This is great.

I see conjures remain in their grossly buffed state. More corrupt enchantment IMO.

Nickhimself · Apr 11, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Mind Blast: increased damage to 15..75.

Mind Blast: decreased damage to 15..60.

Lol

Zuranthium · Apr 11, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

There is absolutely nothing in the current or past assasin templates that is worth promoting in gvg. They need to either be reworked completely to follow a model that rewards player skill (instead of being 123456 bots) - or nerfed out of the metagame entirely.

You make no sense. Other than the part in parentheses. There are plenty of possible Assassin builds out there that could be extremely useful and are not solo-spikers. They all just depend on a skill or two being brought up to the necessary level of power. Fix the bad skills and you will see variety.

~Z

Demoon · Apr 11, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You make no sense. Other than the part in parentheses. There are plenty of possible Assassin builds out there that could be extremely useful and are not solo-spikers. They all just depend on a skill or two being brought up to the necessary level of power. Fix the bad skills and you will see variety.

~Z

I agree with this. There are a lot of great potential Sin elites however, most of the time they just won't fit into a bar. 1 skill I know I'd love to start seeing some play from would be Beguiling Haze, but with a 15 energy cost any chain following BH couldn't be energy intensive at all. However at the same time I could see how buffing some of the elites could directly lead to balance issues.

BoA nerf was not needed in order to beat nerf the FotM SP sins. It simply wasn't needed at all. And in fact if you do count the BoA nerf as one towards sins, then sins took two hits. Now with the decrease in damage to Black Spider Strike the full chain no longer takes down a 60 AL target alone. Though is they are still run there are 3 possibilities for IAS stances to still run, Tiger's Stance, Frenzy and Flail. But I believe the sin will just simply stop being played just as it was just before NF was released.

Neo-LD · Apr 11, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You make no sense. Other than the part in parentheses. There are plenty of possible Assassin builds out there that could be extremely useful and are not solo-spikers. They all just depend on a skill or two being brought up to the necessary level of power. Fix the bad skills and you will see variety.

You misread. I was referring to only the assasin builds that actually see play right now, which are all mindless spike bots. Those kind of builds do not deserve to be good enough to be playable, so suggesting Shadow Prison needs to be buffed to compensate for the BSS nerf is ridiculous. Any change that would make assasin spikers more powerful is categorically moronic.

If instead you want to suggest changes to currently useless skills so that they might be useful (and wouldnt see use as the new tools of newer versions of 123456 bots) then go ahead, I support that.

Servant of Kali · Apr 11, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

The update is fine. Icy Veins is dead as a PvP skill, but it's still a great PvE elite.

I noticed ANet is mostly concerned now with keeping the game 'balanced', when it comes to the current set of skills used in practice.

But, are we going to see any buffs to totally useless skills in the game? To make them at least RA-playable? While game boasts tons of skills, a lot of them start greatly underpowered, and never get changed.

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 11, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Water eles are fine.

Water eles used to be balanced by relatively short snare durations and expensive costs. Their snares were powerful, but the recharges and costs were enough that single target hex removal would pull them pretty quickly. In that way, the template required skill, since a water ele had to apply their snares/blurred to shut down enemy pushes and spikes. These days, water eles singlehandedly overpower a team's hex removal using snare hexes that are some combination of cheap, spammable, and AoE.

I don't agree with Pat that Water Trident is the problem. Frozen Burst is the biggest offender at the moment, as an AoE hex on a 5s recharge that can snare multiple characters on almost every casting. Freezing gust is a great supplement to your water hexes and allows you to keep spamming if something gets interrupted or diverted. I don't even see Water Trident on bars much these days - Icy Shackles' 90% snare is just too good to pass up when the enemy team is on the retreat.

When it comes to shutdown, water eles are also one of the most resilient elementalist templates to date. Most of their skills are on 1s casts, and their best in on a 3/4s. They have multiple skills on 5s recharge, so even if something gets D-shotted or Diversioned they won't lack for snares until the skill is recharged. With Water Attunement and GoLE they have no energy problems, and can even afford to bring a utility skill like Aegis, Purge, or Mirror.

We had a match last night with a team turtling in their base and almost all of their NPCs wiped. We started pulling out at 19:20, but thanks to the other team's water ele we weren't out the door by VoD, despite three veils and a purge. If that level of movement control does not set off alarm bells for you, then you and I have been playing a very different game.

Most water ele builds these days drop Deep Freeze because all their other skills are better, and Deep Freeze used to be the centerpiece of the line. Think about it.

Its reached the point where it's probably a stronger play to drop your warriors for rangers and 321spike people to death. It's boring as hell, but much more effective than the mix of strong removal and shutdown required to power through a flagstand water ele.

Ensign · Apr 11, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

The only Water skill that really deserves a nerf is Frozen Burst. The combination of a fast recharge and a great duration, in a decent AoE, lets you frost-lock anyone you happen to catch in a clump with that one skill alone, and pump out good damage on top of it. It would still be solid with double the recharge. I've considered cutting it on occasion to try and make room for one of the other solid water skills - usually, because I want more ranged snares and the aftercast pisses me off - but I've never actually done it.

The only other water skill that's always on my bar is Blurred Vision. I guess Attunement is close but I've dropped that when running an energy elite before.

I really disagree with a lot of your skill assessments though Squidget. Deep Freeze is still the most money water skill available and I feel so much weaker whenever I don't have it on my bar. Freezing Gust is decent enough, you can do a bunch of neat tricks with it (esp on a Shatterstone bar) or just Gust-lock someone, but it lacks any real oomph. None of the water elites really stand out as must-run, with Shatterstone and Trident being the most attractive of the options. I really couldn't disagree more on Icy Shackles, every time I've run it, it's felt weaker than Freezing Gust. It has only ever felt remotely worthwhile in conjunction with Gust, but that character was so weak in comparison to water guys with some muscle on their skillbars.

Besides Burst nothing really stands out as amazing on a Water bar, they just happen to be really good in a physical-dominant metagame without strong single-hex counters. Who knew?

Peace,
-CxE

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 11, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Deep Freeze is still the most money water skill available and I feel so much weaker whenever I don't have it on my bar.

The problem I've found with running Deep Freeze is that Frozen Burst does so many of the same things I want to do. The AoE snare effect is nice, but in practice I'm usually paying 10 extra energy for the additional range (which is offset by the 3s cast time.) Deep Freeze is great when you can hit lots of guys with it, but the cast time is really prohibitive unless the enemy is in a chokepoint. It's tough to capitalize on the AoE in normal battlefield situations, because by the time your spell hits people will have moved apart.

Despite these issues, Deep Freeze is still a strong skill. If I don't have to carry some kind of alternate utility (E/Me with Mirror or something), it's almost always on my bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Freezing Gust is decent enough, you can do a bunch of neat tricks with it (esp on a Shatterstone bar) or just Gust-lock someone, but it lacks any real oomph.

I think of Gust in the same way I think of Blessed Light on a monk bar. It's not a power skill, but it's something that's always ready and deals with a wide variety of situations. If everything is recharging or nothing else make sense, Freezing Gust is something you can always use to solve the problem until you find something better to do. As you say, it's also fun for mini-spikes with a Shatterstone guy. =)

I don't think Gust is overpowered though. Water eles are in the unusual situation (for their profession) where they have a lot of strong skills, and one overpowered skill that pushes the bar over the edge. I guess it's a nice change from bars that are all about one hideously overpowered skill/combo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

None of the water elites really stand out as must-run, with Shatterstone and Trident being the most attractive of the options. I really couldn't disagree more on Icy Shackles, every time I've run it, it's felt weaker than Freezing Gust. It has only ever felt remotely worthwhile in conjunction with Gust, but that character was so weak in comparison to water guys with some muscle on their skillbars.

Shackles is only 'okay' for flagstand play. It's cheap and has an okay effect, but the 90% snare isn't that much scarier on a warrior than 66%. Either way, he's not going to reach a target that isn't snared/KDed, and even if he does, it's easy for the monks to react accordingly.

Where Shackles really shines is when the opposing team is taking pressure and has to fall back. You can put covered shackles on one guy and Gustlock another, and since critical targets on the retreat always have to be protted you can be pretty secure in meeting Shackles' condition. I've don't remember ever having a retreat against a team with a decent Shackles guy where we didn't take heavy casualties. That's true to a point with any water ele, but Shackles can really make the game in that situation. It's helped along by the fact that the meta is physical-heavy, of course, since metas heavy in physical offense tend to feature a lot of retreats and pushes from both teams.

I certainly don't think Shackles needs a nerf though. Water has a great selection of elites right now, and nerfing any one of them isn't going to weaken the build significantly.

Overall, I agree with your assessment that Burst is the only really broken skill on a water ele's bar. It's just that, in a game where single-target hex removals are terrible, a little bit of water ele imbalance can go a long way.

Legendary Shiz · Apr 11, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Personally I never had a problem with BoA sins. Like everybody said, this game should be about player skill. Granted the BoA template wasn't overly hard to run, you did have to watch your overextending and everything. I'm not here trying to claim that the sin bar really involved a lot of skill. But it made monks watch the battles more, made people pay more attention to their own positioning, it really made people use their head more in my opinion. This game has been ruined IMO, and that bar encouraged everybody to pay attention to themselves and that makes a much better player.

Whatever, all fixes in this game are far...far too late.

Patccmoi · Apr 11, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

I have no clue why i didn't mention Burst, for some reason i always tend to forget that skill when i talk about Water Eles even though it's the one i use the most over the course of a game. Go figure... i agree that this is by far the most broken Water skill atm and that it would still be a very solid skill with a 10s recharge.

As for Deep Freeze cast time, honestly i just started using Me/E instead of E/X since the Auspicious Incantation buff unless i really want another particular utility on that bar that isn't a Mes skill.

I much prefer having 9 FC to Energy Storage, and Auspicious Incantation gives BETTER energy than GoLE combined with Deep Freeze at around 10 inspiration. AI-Deep Freeze with Water Attunement gives something like 54E after casting Deep Freeze which is quite huge and basically refills your bar from 0 to full (in the end you have something like a net 41E gain from AI compared to a net 25E with GoLE). And you rarely use Deep Freeze on recharge so the +6s recharge doesn't really matter much. It's also possible to use it with Frozen Burst where the recharge really doesn't matter much. And since 12 Water vs 14 Water really doesn't change all that much in the end, i find myself using Me/E more and more instead of E/X.

Zuranthium · Apr 12, 2007, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Shackles is only 'okay' for flagstand play. It's cheap and has an okay effect, but the 90% snare isn't that much scarier on a warrior than 66%. Either way, he's not going to reach a target that isn't snared/KDed, and even if he does, it's easy for the monks to react accordingly.

90% movement reduction is wonderful.

And considering that 95% of the physicals out there are using some form of CONJURE now (woot!), it's looking even better!

~Z

LightningHell · Apr 12, 2007, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

And to PvE-ers, some necro buffs are actually quite good. Stupid question btw. but did the update to soul reaping help much against abuse? I didnt have the pleasure of meeting necro's in battle of late so I wouldn't know.

Soul Reaping abuse = 8 necromancers using spirits and minions to effectively have infinite energy.

Riotgear · Apr 12, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Well, Flail can't be used before the SP chain without building up 4 strikes of adrenaline, which would be easily spotted and prepared for. I seriously doubt there will be much of a shift towards Flail.

Building adrenaline won't be a problem except for the first spike, they already switch to zealous to recover energy costs. You could already do it with Flurry, BoA was just better at it. Getting IAS for 5 seconds is not a difficult task, and Anet can either play whack-a-mole with IAS minimums (which won't even work with TF), or just fix the problem at the source and nerf SP.

Quote:

Like everybody said, this game should be about player skill.

Correct. So why promote a build that requires just about zero player skill to be effective?

Quote:

If they buff holy veil to 8 second recharge, I'm taking echo, arcane echo, and holy veil. I'll be the leetest monk ever!

MoR/Remove Hex?

EDIT -- Natural Stride had it coming, I actually thought it was going to get hit more severely (i.e. cost raise to 10). It makes it extremely difficult to apply any sort of pressure to a ranger, and the fact that it's one of the best block stances in the game AND one of the best speed boosts in the game should kind of signal that it's probably still a bit too powerful.

And not to say Escape is good, but it always amused me that Natural Stride is better than an elite that tries to do the same job. :P